William Walwyn  

kzoopair 68M/67F
9060 posts
10/25/2016 11:47 am
William Walwyn


What an inequitable thing it is for one man to have thousands, and another want bread, and that the pleasure of God is, that all men should have enough, and not that one man should abound in this worlds good, spending it upon his lusts, and another man of far better deserts, not be worth two pence, and that it is no such difficulty as men make it to be, to alter the course of the world in this thing, and that a few diligent and valiant spirits may turn the world upside down, if they observe their seasons, and shall with life and courage ingage accordingly.

William Walwyn 1600-1681, Leveller


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dayzeeme 51F
6986 posts
10/25/2016 12:24 pm

ya, what he said ...
(walks away scratching head )


wickedeasy 70F  
32437 posts
10/25/2016 12:29 pm

you old socialist you

well darlin', I may sell my house and head to Dublin where at least I have family and I know it'll be kin who are shooting at me

You cannot conceive the many without the one.


lindoboy100 57M
20653 posts
10/25/2016 12:49 pm

Excellent post McPairs! Mr Walwyn was clearly a man of substance.

I think I read in the Guardian a report by Oxfam that the world's 62 richest billionaires own as much as the poorer 50% of the world's people. Earlier this year maybe, or maybe last year.......something is horribly wrong if that statistic is true.........

Pull ma finger.........


spunkycumfun 59M/65F  
36127 posts
10/25/2016 12:53 pm

The Levellers were well ahead of their time in promoting socialism.
I just can't fully understand why far more people aren't socialist, but capitalist forces are at play.
After the so-called global financial crisis in 2007/2008, I was hoping that an alternative organising idea would emerge - whether green, socialist, anarchist or whatever - but it didn't happen. Neoliberal capitalism, it seems, is the only game in town. And all politicians can do now is to promise to manage capitalism better.
I've just re-read John Rawls' theory of justice and his case for equality, or at least moving towards greater equality, seems more relevant now than when he was writing in the 1970s.
If people, under a veil of ignorance - not knowing how their perfect society would affect them - planned their utopia, it would not be this society. People would prefer equality and social justice.
But many people know they have a vested interest in inequality so keep supporting the system.
I took out a mortgage to buy my apartment. Consequently, I like low interest rates. I have a material interest in capitalism working. Capitalism just corrupts!
Sorry, your post prompted me to go off on one!


sexysixties2 72F  
38775 posts
10/25/2016 1:10 pm

It's a lovely thought....perfection and equality in this oh so imperfect world....however I don't see the decline of Capitalism in my lifetime.

"Age does not protect you from love, but love, to some extent, protects you from age."

~~Anais Nin~~


BrownEyedBBW 51F  
8859 posts
10/25/2016 1:12 pm

I just can't fully understand why far more people aren't socialist, but capitalist forces are at play

Well, as a happy capitalist, I would say that I like that the effort I put in is generally rewarded by the rewards I reap. I don't preclude the idea of charity, mentoring, or other ways of assisting people who a striving. Heck, I had people who helped me along the way. As disproportionately distributed as the wealth of the world is, there are still, many, many people who give their time and other resources to other.

I also think that a certain amount of socialism is necessary: a strong military, roads, and other community assets. Aside from taxes, I feel that I should be the one to decide how to spend the money I earn. Incent me to be charitable (well, not me, I'm a bit of a do-gooder, but you get what I mean), don't force me to share.


KItkat1415 57F  
19816 posts
10/25/2016 1:42 pm

I understand that there will always be the people who praise capitalism and those that praise socialism; that we have both in the USA is not satisfying either faction.
Kk

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Annie_34 61T
5924 posts
10/25/2016 2:08 pm

Bonjour Kzoopair
Ne connaissant pas William Walwyn j'ai chercher avec Ya hhoo et la cinquième annonce était la tienne
Pour moi les humains seront toujours un mystère
Quand un empereur romain faisait un triomphe l'esclave qui tenait sa couronne de laurier au dessus de sa tête disait " N'oublis pas César que tu n'est qu'un mortel "
Mais il l'oubliait toujours
♥ Bisou ♥ Poton ♥ Annie ♥


Hello Kzoopair
Not knowing William Walwyn I look with Ya hhoo and fifth announcement was yours
For me the human will always be a mystery
When a Roman emperor made a triumphal the slave holding his laurel wreath above his head he saying "Do not forgotten you Caesar you are is only a mortal"
But he always forgot
♥ Kiss ♥ Annie ♥









Notre vie est un voyage-♦-Dans l'hiver et dans la nuit
Nous cherchons notre passage-♦-Dans le ciel où rien ne luit .

Pour laisser un message cliquer ici Boite aux lettres secrete Annie
Sommaire du blog Annie la Pute


kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 2:49 pm

    Quoting Darling_Annette:
    A remarkable man was Mr Walwyn, and although i have often had similar thoughts to those above, never could i put it so eloquently. So thank you Bill, for printing this quote of his, it has brightened my morning and put hope in my day. *hugs* xx A.
It's a favorite of mine. I'm fascinated with the era and it's people. They often looked at the world from a theological perspective but in so many respects they were thoroughly modern thinkers.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 2:50 pm

    Quoting dayzeeme:
    ya, what he said ...
    (walks away scratching head )
It isn't complicated- share.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 2:52 pm

    Quoting wickedeasy:
    you old socialist you

    well darlin', I may sell my house and head to Dublin where at least I have family and I know it'll be kin who are shooting at me
Who are you calling old? I'll stay here and still have my kin shooting at me. My family has been here for a very long time.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 2:58 pm

    Quoting lindoboy100:
    Excellent post McPairs! Mr Walwyn was clearly a man of substance.

    I think I read in the Guardian a report by Oxfam that the world's 62 richest billionaires own as much as the poorer 50% of the world's people. Earlier this year maybe, or maybe last year.......something is horribly wrong if that statistic is true.........
Whether the statistic is right or wrong, inequality is killing us- ALL of us. There is wealth aplenty for each of us. How does it benefit any of us to hoard, and to do so based on spurious notions of who is or is not deserving? Very often those notions are decided by ethnicity or skin color or gender identity. It's not only counter productive, but simply wrong.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 3:20 pm

    Quoting spunkycumfun:
    The Levellers were well ahead of their time in promoting socialism.
    I just can't fully understand why far more people aren't socialist, but capitalist forces are at play.
    After the so-called global financial crisis in 2007/2008, I was hoping that an alternative organising idea would emerge - whether green, socialist, anarchist or whatever - but it didn't happen. Neoliberal capitalism, it seems, is the only game in town. And all politicians can do now is to promise to manage capitalism better.
    I've just re-read John Rawls' theory of justice and his case for equality, or at least moving towards greater equality, seems more relevant now than when he was writing in the 1970s.
    If people, under a veil of ignorance - not knowing how their perfect society would affect them - planned their utopia, it would not be this society. People would prefer equality and social justice.
    But many people know they have a vested interest in inequality so keep supporting the system.
    I took out a mortgage to buy my apartment. Consequently, I like low interest rates. I have a material interest in capitalism working. Capitalism just corrupts!
    Sorry, your post prompted me to go off on one!
I admire the Levellers, Ranters and Diggers a good deal. Men like Walwyn, Lilburne and Winstanley are heroes to me. They saw their social order for what it was- a con game perpetrated by King, noble and bishop to rob the commons of their very livelihood. The same con is still being played even though the names have changed

We all have to live in a world we never made, Spunky. I've ended up invested in this system too, just to survive. But that necessity doesn't make it just.

If the current trend continues we'll soon be witnessing end stage capitalism. In the game of monopoly, when one player has all the money the game is over. That's where we're headed.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 3:25 pm

    Quoting sexysixties2:
    It's a lovely thought....perfection and equality in this oh so imperfect world....however I don't see the decline of Capitalism in my lifetime.
It's a lovely thought if all we do is think it. We have to vote. We have to speak up. Your lifetime and mine are likely about neck and neck. But we just saw a socialist candidate enjoying unheard of success in the Democratic primaries this year- Bernie Sanders. It seems that there is a younger generation that's grown up without the traditional blinders on, the ones that prevent them from seeing injustice. Never give up!

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 3:29 pm

    Quoting  :

And economic equality! "We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."-
Louis D. Brandeis

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 3:31 pm

    Quoting BrownEyedBBW:
    I just can't fully understand why far more people aren't socialist, but capitalist forces are at play

    Well, as a happy capitalist, I would say that I like that the effort I put in is generally rewarded by the rewards I reap. I don't preclude the idea of charity, mentoring, or other ways of assisting people who a striving. Heck, I had people who helped me along the way. As disproportionately distributed as the wealth of the world is, there are still, many, many people who give their time and other resources to other.

    I also think that a certain amount of socialism is necessary: a strong military, roads, and other community assets. Aside from taxes, I feel that I should be the one to decide how to spend the money I earn. Incent me to be charitable (well, not me, I'm a bit of a do-gooder, but you get what I mean), don't force me to share.
This is not about charity. This is not about a handout or "free stuff". This is about economic justice and an opportunity for everyone to succeed.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 3:37 pm

    Quoting KItkat1415:
    I understand that there will always be the people who praise capitalism and those that praise socialism; that we have both in the USA is not satisfying either faction.
    Kk
It certainly isn't satisfying this faction. Since my childhood I've seen the social safety net dismantled and public education under relentless attack by social Darwinists who believe that it's every man for himself. Whatever socialist benefits we've enjoyed are rapidly being undermined and abolished. I disagree with this slide into the law of the jungle. I think humans are both competitive and cooperative, and that everyone does better when everyone does better.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 3:42 pm

    Quoting Annie_34:
    Bonjour Kzoopair
    Ne connaissant pas William Walwyn j'ai chercher avec Ya hhoo et la cinquième annonce était la tienne
    Pour moi les humains seront toujours un mystère
    Quand un empereur romain faisait un triomphe l'esclave qui tenait sa couronne de laurier au dessus de sa tête disait " N'oublis pas César que tu n'est qu'un mortel "
    Mais il l'oubliait toujours
    ♥ Bisou ♥ Poton ♥ Annie ♥


    Hello Kzoopair
    Not knowing William Walwyn I look with Ya hhoo and fifth announcement was yours
    For me the human will always be a mystery
    When a Roman emperor made a triumphal the slave holding his laurel wreath above his head he saying "Do not forgotten you Caesar you are is only a mortal"
    But he always forgot
    ♥ Kiss ♥ Annie ♥








It's often been convenient to forget. Augustus didn't become emperor by defeating the Senate or conquering Rome in battle. Things were no longer working in the republic and he promised the citizens that he was the one man who could fix it- kind of like what Trump is doing today.

Il est souvent été commode d'oublier. Auguste ne devient empereur en battant le Sénat ou la conquête de Rome dans la bataille. Les choses ne travaillaient plus dans la république et il a promis aux citoyens qu'il était le seul homme qui pourrait it- fixer un peu comme ce qui est en train de faire Trump aujourd'hui.

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Furbal1972 47M
18592 posts
10/25/2016 4:13 pm

That is one deep run-on sentence.

Didn't know thy guy, but have learned some by reading the comments.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 4:55 pm

    Quoting Furbal1972:
    That is one deep run-on sentence.

    Didn't know thy guy, but have learned some by reading the comments.
It was the seventeenth century. The only examples they had to draw on was the likes of Shakespeare, Marlowe, Jonson....

Fortunately Strunk and White had not yet written "Elements of Style" or we might not have Sonnet eighteen, "The Passionate Shepherd to His Love" or "Song to Celia".

The prose of the English revolutionaries was a tough nut to crack at times, but they knew they were witnessing a scam and a ripoff. And they said so, at risk of financial ruin and great physical harm.

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08540Tantrafun 56M  
1083 posts
10/25/2016 5:45 pm

[image1]George Orwell's house where he was born and lived. Still there, exactly as he left it when he went for treatment for T.B. Now they are going to turn it into the first George Orwell museum.

Bill, Socialism doesn't work. It kills initiative and competition which in turn kills innovation and productivity. Capitalism based on Pax Romana/ colonialism (which started the whole mess of monogamy and foreign conquest). Corporatism has replaced colonialism. Pax Americana is called Project for the new American century(PNAC).

As linodo correctly said that 62 people own 50% of global wealth. What he didn't mention is the second part of the report ie 1% of people own MORE wealth than 99% combined. There was another report published by OECD at the same time.

They found that India from AD 1 to 1540 had 35% of world GDP. The richest country in the world for the longest time in history. Then came the Islamic invasion of India followed by the British. When the British left India's share of World GDP was less than 2%. Today it is just over3%.(Indian rupee was equal to 1 British pound) Today 1 pound will buy 100 rupees. An Indian who makes 138 rupee a day has the purchasing power of U.S $2 instead of $150/day)

It is not that Indians didn't work from 1540 to 1947. They actually worked harder and longer. But their wealth went to people like Colonel Winston Churchill of the Indian Army, Rudyard Kipling the colonial evangelist, Elihu Yale an (American born) Scotsman who was the president of Madras presidency( in Southern India).

In 1780 Warren hastings the first Governor General of British India decided to conquer China by making Chinese elite drug addicts with opium. He forced Indian farmers to produce opium. the bankers who facilitated the trade(became richest family in the world) later moved to Europe and changed their family name to into German 'Red Shield' ie Rothschild. The merchant family who worked for them and shipped opium to china were the Roosevelt family.

Rothschilds moved to Europe with their money, Roosevelt's move to America and became Presidents, Yale moved to C.T, and gave some of his money to build a University, then returned to Scotland and died there. Col Churchill became Prime Minister of the British Empire. Kipling Moved to Dummerston, Vermont, U.S.A built an Indian style house and wrote kids books for his daughter. When she died he moved to England.

One guy who railed against these upper class was a middle class Indian policeman named Erick Blair also of English origin. To avoid stigmatizing the Blair's (his extended family for ever), He changed his name and wrote books about Government, wealth etc. His name George Orwell. Being a poor/middle class Indian he died of T.B when he was in his 40's. His essay "shooting an elephant" is one of my favorite.

2 fucked up countries in Europe followed the old Indian economic system after WWII. Sweden and Finland. Pure capitalism and free trade and very high taxes. Both countries motto was Equality for All. Like the pre-colonial Indians they thrived. These countries stlll have one of the highest quality and best standard of living in the world.Finland ranks number 1 in education in the world as well.

Sweden became socialist in the 90's. They decreased the taxes for corporations sold saab and volvo to GM and Ford, still continued to provide the services that was made possible by the innovative Swedish capitalist in the past. Along with Merkel they imported a lot of the illiterate feral beast from the middle east, hell bent on conquest, death and destruction. Sweden is sinking fast under socialism.

The history teaches that, countries that promote unfettered capitalism and trade with high taxes/tariffs and spend it for common good. Who also have high inheritance taxes, (so that wealth doesn't accumulate in a few hands) is the way to achieve equality and high standard of living for all, generation after generation.

Today South Korea and Singapore practices that. In just one generation these 2 countries achieved what Sweden and Finland achieved after WWII.

We have no one who advocates this for us in the U.S. It is either Tax and Spend or Cut and Spend.

"Rules for happiness: something to do, someone to love, something to hope for.”― Immanuel Kant .


kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 7:11 pm

    Quoting 08540Tantrafun:
    [image1]George Orwell's house where he was born and lived. Still there, exactly as he left it when he went for treatment for T.B. Now they are going to turn it into the first George Orwell museum.

    Bill, Socialism doesn't work. It kills initiative and competition which in turn kills innovation and productivity. Capitalism based on Pax Romana/ colonialism (which started the whole mess of monogamy and foreign conquest). Corporatism has replaced colonialism. Pax Americana is called Project for the new American century(PNAC).

    As linodo correctly said that 62 people own 50% of global wealth. What he didn't mention is the second part of the report ie 1% of people own MORE wealth than 99% combined. There was another report published by OECD at the same time.

    They found that India from AD 1 to 1540 had 35% of world GDP. The richest country in the world for the longest time in history. Then came the Islamic invasion of India followed by the British. When the British left India's share of World GDP was less than 2%. Today it is just over3%.(Indian rupee was equal to 1 British pound) Today 1 pound will buy 100 rupees. An Indian who makes 138 rupee a day has the purchasing power of U.S $2 instead of $150/day)

    It is not that Indians didn't work from 1540 to 1947. They actually worked harder and longer. But their wealth went to people like Colonel Winston Churchill of the Indian Army, Rudyard Kipling the colonial evangelist, Elihu Yale an (American born) Scotsman who was the president of Madras presidency( in Southern India).

    In 1780 Warren hastings the first Governor General of British India decided to conquer China by making Chinese elite drug addicts with opium. He forced Indian farmers to produce opium. the bankers who facilitated the trade(became richest family in the world) later moved to Europe and changed their family name to into German 'Red Shield' ie Rothschild. The merchant family who worked for them and shipped opium to china were the Roosevelt family.

    Rothschilds moved to Europe with their money, Roosevelt's move to America and became Presidents, Yale moved to C.T, and gave some of his money to build a University, then returned to Scotland and died there. Col Churchill became Prime Minister of the British Empire. Kipling Moved to Dummerston, Vermont, U.S.A built an Indian style house and wrote kids books for his daughter. When she died he moved to England.

    One guy who railed against these upper class was a middle class Indian policeman named Erick Blair also of English origin. To avoid stigmatizing the Blair's (his extended family for ever), He changed his name and wrote books about Government, wealth etc. His name George Orwell. Being a poor/middle class Indian he died of T.B when he was in his 40's. His essay "shooting an elephant" is one of my favorite.

    2 fucked up countries in Europe followed the old Indian economic system after WWII. Sweden and Finland. Pure capitalism and free trade and very high taxes. Both countries motto was Equality for All. Like the pre-colonial Indians they thrived. These countries stlll have one of the highest quality and best standard of living in the world.Finland ranks number 1 in education in the world as well.

    Sweden became socialist in the 90's. They decreased the taxes for corporations sold saab and volvo to GM and Ford, still continued to provide the services that was made possible by the innovative Swedish capitalist in the past. Along with Merkel they imported a lot of the illiterate feral beast from the middle east, hell bent on conquest, death and destruction. Sweden is sinking fast under socialism.

    The history teaches that, countries that promote unfettered capitalism and trade with high taxes/tariffs and spend it for common good. Who also have high inheritance taxes, (so that wealth doesn't accumulate in a few hands) is the way to achieve equality and high standard of living for all, generation after generation.

    Today South Korea and Singapore practices that. In just one generation these 2 countries achieved what Sweden and Finland achieved after WWII.

    We have no one who advocates this for us in the U.S. It is either Tax and Spend or Cut and Spend.
Socialism does work. It's working in many countries today and it worked in this country until the collapse of the Soviet Union convinced American conservatives that Ronald Reagan won the cold war single handedly in bare handed combat.

You've thrown a lot of data into your comment, none of it demonstrating that socialism doesn't work.

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KtMnDu 67M
6216 posts
10/25/2016 8:53 pm

I regularly see the evidence, through the writings of those soo long ago, over soo many years, that a lot of us get it.....so why can't we as Humans put it together and go there?

I've seen so many proposals and ideas where the World's population could all be generously looked after, and all of us....not just some of us.....but that all of us could be lifted up.....we could find, and share, in that prosperity......

Over the many years, we've squandered the opportunities, and the possibilities, and now the Planet is losing it's ability to sustain life as we know it......

I have my catch-all theory here, and it's that our lifespans are too short......we don't live long enough to get seriously interested in the longer game....early on we figure we got lots of time.....then we figure we better get it while we can.....and then, the heck with them all, I'm going out to live in the trees, out by the river.....

Unfortunately, not all of us can get out to those trees, out by that river......


kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/25/2016 10:54 pm

    Quoting KtMnDu:
    I regularly see the evidence, through the writings of those soo long ago, over soo many years, that a lot of us get it.....so why can't we as Humans put it together and go there?

    I've seen so many proposals and ideas where the World's population could all be generously looked after, and all of us....not just some of us.....but that all of us could be lifted up.....we could find, and share, in that prosperity......

    Over the many years, we've squandered the opportunities, and the possibilities, and now the Planet is losing it's ability to sustain life as we know it......

    I have my catch-all theory here, and it's that our lifespans are too short......we don't live long enough to get seriously interested in the longer game....early on we figure we got lots of time.....then we figure we better get it while we can.....and then, the heck with them all, I'm going out to live in the trees, out by the river.....

    Unfortunately, not all of us can get out to those trees, out by that river......
There may be something to your theory, KtMnDu. Korzybski wrote about this in "Science and Sanity"- that human progress can be expressed as an exponential function of time. He takes a view counter to your own- that we build upon the knowledge of previous generations. We don't have to relearn through trial and error or serendipity all the accumulated knowledge of preceding generations. But in support of your own idea, we do seem to be condemned to keep repeating history over and over and over. It was Korzybski's wish that we could learn a new way to think and a new way of perception.

There's a natural appeal for me in men like Walwyn. He spoke truth to power in a time when that was a very dangerous thing to do.

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sweet_VM 61F
80782 posts
10/26/2016 8:50 am

A beautiful post KZ hugssss V

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spunkycumfun 59M/65F  
36127 posts
10/26/2016 8:55 am

    Quoting  :

I read Larry Elliott's piece in The Guardian and, though not praising Brexit, argued that it provoded an opportunity to re-balance the British economy. I hope that happens but I'm not holding my breath.
What I meant by an alternative organising idea was an idea with increasing political and popular support to challenge the neoliberal capitalist hegemony that has dominated the West since the late 1970s.
Socialism and social democracy is in retreat (even if Hillary Clinton wins), communism is almost dead, anarchism only attracts minority support, and green ideas, though more poular, are being assimilated.
Capitalism, perhaps along with nationalsim, is the only serious game in town.


kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/26/2016 9:54 am

    Quoting sweet_VM:
    A beautiful post KZ hugssss V
Thank you V. It seemed like a good time to point out that not everyone who needs a helping hand is lazy or refuses to help himself. We're certainly a species that competes but we're also a species that works together and cooperates. How we treat the weaker members of our tribe can speak of our strength, not our weakness. It's a matter of choice.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/26/2016 9:57 am

    Quoting  :

And a few among us could start consuming a hell of a lot less. That it is so few is shameful.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/26/2016 10:29 am

    Quoting Darling_Annette:
    I always enjoy your thoughts and your writing but, with respect, i wonder if the cause (of our malaise) is our short lifespan. Many past cultures, including the Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Nabateans of Petra and some Chinese dynasties embarked on projects whose reach was far longer than the lifespan of individual people, or of the 'ruler' who originally commissioned the works.

    Personally I feel it is unfettered greed and vested interest that holds us back.
    You only have to see how the word 'socialism' causes such a scare in the USA to know that many Americans have been conned (by vested interests) to equate socialism with communism. Yet many succesful modern nations combine free-enterprise capitalism with equitable socialism and work all the better for it. As an example, in Australia (and many other civilised nations) there is universal healthcare and only the doctors and patients are party to medical decicions, the insurance companies have little say, unlike in America. But, whatever is stopping America establishing universal healthcare, it probably isn't much related to our relatively short lifespans.

I think most Americans have fallen for the con, or at least have found it expedient to pay lip service to believing it. The worst calamity to befall the USA in the twentieth century was the collapse of the Soviet Union. If we're not careful, we're next. Conservatives here are systematically destroying everything that was unique and good about us as a nation. All they see is a military colossus that enforces its will on anyone who takes issue with its empty platitudes. Right now we're having a hell of a fight to put our own house in order. We won't win by making jokes about fleeing across the border to Canada. This is a fight worth having.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/26/2016 10:39 am

    Quoting spunkycumfun:
    I read Larry Elliott's piece in The Guardian and, though not praising Brexit, argued that it provoded an opportunity to re-balance the British economy. I hope that happens but I'm not holding my breath.
    What I meant by an alternative organising idea was an idea with increasing political and popular support to challenge the neoliberal capitalist hegemony that has dominated the West since the late 1970s.
    Socialism and social democracy is in retreat (even if Hillary Clinton wins), communism is almost dead, anarchism only attracts minority support, and green ideas, though more poular, are being assimilated.
    Capitalism, perhaps along with nationalsim, is the only serious game in town.
Take heart, Spunky. In Michigan Hillary Clinton was projected to win the Democratic primary by twenty to thirty points. Instead Bernie Sanders won a narrow victory, which amounted to a huge upset. Socialism isn't a boogie man to Americans who are being bled white by capitalism run amok. They see a chance at equality and opportunity in socialism. Bernie pulled off these upsets all across the country, gaining momentum as he went. What have we got to lose? Only a system that treats us as dupes and commodities.

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spunkycumfun 59M/65F  
36127 posts
10/26/2016 11:12 am

    Quoting kzoopair:
    Take heart, Spunky. In Michigan Hillary Clinton was projected to win the Democratic primary by twenty to thirty points. Instead Bernie Sanders won a narrow victory, which amounted to a huge upset. Socialism isn't a boogie man to Americans who are being bled white by capitalism run amok. They see a chance at equality and opportunity in socialism. Bernie pulled off these upsets all across the country, gaining momentum as he went. What have we got to lose? Only a system that treats us as dupes and commodities.
Your post has provoked a lot of thought in blogland.
You are right that the support given to Bernie Sanders is a beacon of hope, something for the Left to build upon. Unfortunately, in this country which i realise is not a major player, our equivalent of Bernie Sanders is Jeremy Corbyn who seems more concerned at picking fights with the Labour MPs than attractting support to win power to change things.
I think he's more interested in being a leader of an opposition party than trying turn the Labour Party into a governing party.
Next year there are important elections in France and Germany; they'll be interesting. I expect the Right to do well in France and the Far Right to do well in Germany.


NaughtyInSO 109F
9758 posts
10/26/2016 11:43 am

I lived half of my life in the regime that we were told was communism. Then, my life took a sharp turn and I ended up in the regime that called itself capitalism.
None of that was true because 'communism' was deeply corrupted socialism that retained small elements of feudalism and capitalism, and 'capitalism' here in the US has major elements of socialism.

There's no pure socialism, as there's no pure capitalism. Utopia doesn't exist. The best we can do is to find a compromise between two structures. This process could take centuries of educating masses, getting rid of government corruption, changing voting systems, etc, etc, etc.... Another Utopia indeed.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/26/2016 2:09 pm

    Quoting NaughtyInSO:
    I lived half of my life in the regime that we were told was communism. Then, my life took a sharp turn and I ended up in the regime that called itself capitalism.
    None of that was true because 'communism' was deeply corrupted socialism that retained small elements of feudalism and capitalism, and 'capitalism' here in the US has major elements of socialism.

    There's no pure socialism, as there's no pure capitalism. Utopia doesn't exist. The best we can do is to find a compromise between two structures. This process could take centuries of educating masses, getting rid of government corruption, changing voting systems, etc, etc, etc.... Another Utopia indeed.
You're right of course- Utopia doesn't exist. I'm fascinated by the attempts to create one though. From Oneida to New Harmony to the Shakers they all tried to find a better way to live. And I have criticisms of every one of them!

It's a lot harder to actually go out and do a thing than it is to talk about it. I'm partial to Rosa Luxemburg's Theory of Permanent Revolution, later taken up by Trotsky. The idea being that our political devices are destined to be chaotic and forever in turmoil. That we need a constant boil to bring up new ideas and leaders from the bottom to replace those at the top who will surely become entrenched if allowed to remain in power. We do need pragmatic rather than ideological solutions to problems. That used to be one of America's strengths.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/26/2016 2:14 pm

    Quoting spunkycumfun:
    Your post has provoked a lot of thought in blogland.
    You are right that the support given to Bernie Sanders is a beacon of hope, something for the Left to build upon. Unfortunately, in this country which i realise is not a major player, our equivalent of Bernie Sanders is Jeremy Corbyn who seems more concerned at picking fights with the Labour MPs than attractting support to win power to change things.
    I think he's more interested in being a leader of an opposition party than trying turn the Labour Party into a governing party.
    Next year there are important elections in France and Germany; they'll be interesting. I expect the Right to do well in France and the Far Right to do well in Germany.
I fear you may be right that the right wing swing hasn't reached the apogee of its orbit. I once thought that it wouldn't get any worse that Reagan.

I'd take some issue though that the UK is not a major player. Its influence is still considerable around the world, for better of for worse.

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ProfPlayful 56M
3863 posts
10/26/2016 9:16 pm

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon told us "Property is theft."

So did Zaphod Beeblebrox.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/26/2016 10:18 pm

    Quoting ProfPlayful:
    Pierre-Joseph Proudhon told us "Property is theft."

    So did Zaphod Beeblebrox.
I'm inclined to agree, especially as the planet becomes overcrowded. And with that, I hear few people discussing overpopulation these days. When I was young it was all the rage to claim that there were too many of us. Of course, the problem with that is that there are few people volunteering to leave.

I never could bring myself to trust Beeblebrox.

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goodatpoetry2 70M
16574 posts
10/28/2016 3:13 am

That IS one hell of a long sentence!
But it does make a hell of a lot of sense, too.


08540Tantrafun 56M  
1083 posts
10/28/2016 6:28 pm

Bill, The Constitution of India was adopted by the Constituent Assembly on 26 November 1949, and came into force on 26 January 1950. See what happened to the British pound since that date.

Yesterday Apple introduced the new Macbook pro 15" for $1799. The price in Britain #1799. ie 1 dollar =1 pound. A 500 pound increase for the Brits from Last year. Most of the British common wealth currencies are going to tank, with it all their standard of living.

Dollar becomes the king. Corporatism have completely replaced colonialism. U.S has replaced the British Empire. Today The United States is the world's largest national economy representing 22% of nominal global GDP and 17% of gross world product .The U.S. economy grew by an average of 3.8% from 1946 to 1973, while real median household income surged 74%.

Nordic countries are not socialistic. But people there demand that all their citizens are treated humanly and equally by their governments. Approximately 90% of all resources and companies are privately owned, with a minority of 5% owned by the state and another 5% operating as either consumer or producer cooperatives. Personal Income Tax Rate in Sweden averaged 56.28 percent from 1995 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 61.40 percent in 1996 and a record low of 51.50 percent in 2000.

A 2015 survey by market research institute TNS Sifo concluded that the Tax Agency Skatteverket,has the third best reputation – beaten only by Lantmäteriet (responsible for property division) and the Swedish Patent and Registration Office (PRV) – of 27 major Swedish public bodies, scoring highly for its customer service and for ‘contributing positively to society’.

‘You don’t have to like taxes, but most people seem confident that things are done fairly’, Toivo Sjörén of TNS Sifo says. By contrast its American equivalent, the Internal Revenue Service, is one of the least popular federal agencies in the United States, according to a 2015 poll by Pew Research Center .

Swedish word for tax – skatt – means: treasure. The word for tax itself has such positive connotations. The reason is that all are treated with dignity from cradle to grave – literally.

Subsidising college for qualified students would give a lot of people a chance at mobility. Georgia already does it with great success. lottery money was supposed to do that in N.J, god knows what that money is being spend on. Kids are not getting it.

Universal healthcare and opportunity for hard working kids to attend universities or trade school regardless of income, race or gender could make a huge difference in our country.

Unfortunately as the dollar strengthens only the rich Americans get to enjoy the power of the mighty dollar. Poor doesn't have any.

It is not ism's but policies that address the basic human needs that works. free enterprise, free trade with high taxes and tariffs paying for universal health care and quality education/training.

"Rules for happiness: something to do, someone to love, something to hope for.”― Immanuel Kant .


tickles4us 58M
7007 posts
10/28/2016 8:59 pm

    Quoting spunkycumfun:
    The Levellers were well ahead of their time in promoting socialism.
    I just can't fully understand why far more people aren't socialist, but capitalist forces are at play.
    After the so-called global financial crisis in 2007/2008, I was hoping that an alternative organising idea would emerge - whether green, socialist, anarchist or whatever - but it didn't happen. Neoliberal capitalism, it seems, is the only game in town. And all politicians can do now is to promise to manage capitalism better.
    I've just re-read John Rawls' theory of justice and his case for equality, or at least moving towards greater equality, seems more relevant now than when he was writing in the 1970s.
    If people, under a veil of ignorance - not knowing how their perfect society would affect them - planned their utopia, it would not be this society. People would prefer equality and social justice.
    But many people know they have a vested interest in inequality so keep supporting the system.
    I took out a mortgage to buy my apartment. Consequently, I like low interest rates. I have a material interest in capitalism working. Capitalism just corrupts!
    Sorry, your post prompted me to go off on one!
The fat lady ain't sang yet...

Vive La Difference


tickles4us 58M
7007 posts
10/28/2016 10:13 pm

I guess there is a reason greed is considered a sin and justifiably so. Seems people have known about the propensity of men to grab for what they want and not let go for ages.

Vive La Difference


BeccaLuvs 58F  
17996 posts
10/29/2016 1:02 pm

Oh wow K! So glad I tuned into your Blog now! Your Blogs and photography for "Red, Yellow, Green and Blue" are awesome! I truly felt like I was walking on that gravel track, the leaves crunching under my feet, or looking up into the blue, blue sky! Great stuff! Just goes to show that the 'good' things in life will always be "free"?!

..... And always 'hold onto all those sexy thoughts'!
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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/29/2016 1:54 pm

    Quoting goodatpoetry2:
    That IS one hell of a long sentence!
    But it does make a hell of a lot of sense, too.
It was the seventeenth century- they tended to string their thoughts into such long sentences. It can seem hard to follow for modern readers.

But of course it makes sense. The commons knew they had been robbed and were being screwed by the system.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/29/2016 1:59 pm

    Quoting 08540Tantrafun:
    Bill, The Constitution of India was adopted by the Constituent Assembly on 26 November 1949, and came into force on 26 January 1950. See what happened to the British pound since that date.

    Yesterday Apple introduced the new Macbook pro 15" for $1799. The price in Britain #1799. ie 1 dollar =1 pound. A 500 pound increase for the Brits from Last year. Most of the British common wealth currencies are going to tank, with it all their standard of living.

    Dollar becomes the king. Corporatism have completely replaced colonialism. U.S has replaced the British Empire. Today The United States is the world's largest national economy representing 22% of nominal global GDP and 17% of gross world product .The U.S. economy grew by an average of 3.8% from 1946 to 1973, while real median household income surged 74%.

    Nordic countries are not socialistic. But people there demand that all their citizens are treated humanly and equally by their governments. Approximately 90% of all resources and companies are privately owned, with a minority of 5% owned by the state and another 5% operating as either consumer or producer cooperatives. Personal Income Tax Rate in Sweden averaged 56.28 percent from 1995 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 61.40 percent in 1996 and a record low of 51.50 percent in 2000.

    A 2015 survey by market research institute TNS Sifo concluded that the Tax Agency Skatteverket,has the third best reputation – beaten only by Lantmäteriet (responsible for property division) and the Swedish Patent and Registration Office (PRV) – of 27 major Swedish public bodies, scoring highly for its customer service and for ‘contributing positively to society’.

    ‘You don’t have to like taxes, but most people seem confident that things are done fairly’, Toivo Sjörén of TNS Sifo says. By contrast its American equivalent, the Internal Revenue Service, is one of the least popular federal agencies in the United States, according to a 2015 poll by Pew Research Center .

    Swedish word for tax – skatt – means: treasure. The word for tax itself has such positive connotations. The reason is that all are treated with dignity from cradle to grave – literally.

    Subsidising college for qualified students would give a lot of people a chance at mobility. Georgia already does it with great success. lottery money was supposed to do that in N.J, god knows what that money is being spend on. Kids are not getting it.

    Universal healthcare and opportunity for hard working kids to attend universities or trade school regardless of income, race or gender could make a huge difference in our country.

    Unfortunately as the dollar strengthens only the rich Americans get to enjoy the power of the mighty dollar. Poor doesn't have any.

    It is not ism's but policies that address the basic human needs that works. free enterprise, free trade with high taxes and tariffs paying for universal health care and quality education/training.
They key phrase here is of course "Corporatism have completely replaced colonialism". It's the same old shit, just different names. I agree with you that it isn't about "-isms". We need pragmatic solutions. You won't find a single "-ism" in Walwyn's quote.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/29/2016 2:00 pm

    Quoting tickles4us:
    The fat lady ain't sang yet...
Just right Tickles- she ain't!

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/29/2016 2:03 pm

    Quoting tickles4us:
    I guess there is a reason greed is considered a sin and justifiably so. Seems people have known about the propensity of men to grab for what they want and not let go for ages.
As I mentioned in another comment, most of their solutions were theological- they looked to God and the Bible for perspective and guidance, but otherwise they were modern thinkers. However, the demand for justice is as old as our species. Even animals have demonstrated a sense of fair play.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/29/2016 2:05 pm

    Quoting BeccaLuvs:
    Oh wow K! So glad I tuned into your Blog now! Your Blogs and photography for "Red, Yellow, Green and Blue" are awesome! I truly felt like I was walking on that gravel track, the leaves crunching under my feet, or looking up into the blue, blue sky! Great stuff! Just goes to show that the 'good' things in life will always be "free"?!
They're free if we take them.

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kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
10/30/2016 7:39 am

    Quoting  :

It fascinates me that there was so much political and philosophical sophistication lying beneath the surface at the time of the Civil War. We've long been taught that the masses were ignorant and illiterate, but they were far more aware than they're generally given credit for. All it took was the removal of royal authority to bring it boiling to the surface. I'm especially drawn to the Ranters, who wasted no time in drinking, eating and fucking to excess while they had the chance! There was a brief window before the Presbyterians seized control when people could speak and live freely, and they grabbed it with both hands.

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08540Tantrafun 56M  
1083 posts
11/5/2016 9:08 am

"Full of sound and fury signifying nothing" After such a boisterous, vain and venal election. There will be nearly no change in the Congress. When Buffetts hordes cash. Watch out! He sold high, now waiting for the crash, so that he can pick up shares for pennies on the dollar. This is why the rich gets richer very fast. The compounding effect. Until people starts voting out incumbents en mass nothing will change.

From Bloomberg news yesterday: "Warren Buffett is sitting on more cash than ever.His Berkshire Hathaway Inc. had almost $85 billion on its books as of Sept. 30, according to a regulatory filing late Friday. That’s up from the previous record of $72.7 billion on June 30."

"Rules for happiness: something to do, someone to love, something to hope for.”― Immanuel Kant .


kzoopair 68M/67F
25704 posts
11/5/2016 9:57 am

    Quoting 08540Tantrafun:
    "Full of sound and fury signifying nothing" After such a boisterous, vain and venal election. There will be nearly no change in the Congress. When Buffetts hordes cash. Watch out! He sold high, now waiting for the crash, so that he can pick up shares for pennies on the dollar. This is why the rich gets richer very fast. The compounding effect. Until people starts voting out incumbents en mass nothing will change.

    From Bloomberg news yesterday: "Warren Buffett is sitting on more cash than ever.His Berkshire Hathaway Inc. had almost $85 billion on its books as of Sept. 30, according to a regulatory filing late Friday. That’s up from the previous record of $72.7 billion on June 30."
I think it's nigh impossible to predict if there will be a change in Congress. It's true that gerrymandering has skewed outcomes in Congressional races so that only a few are competitive. Along with getting the money out of the equation a new system of drawing districts should be priority one. I'm doubtful that Clinton has the coattails to influence down ballot races. And I don't think Trump has that kind of influence either.

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